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Phil Hine's Chaotic Slant
G&C: Being seen as an "authority" on Chaos Magick and Paganism because of the popularity of your numerous published works, workshops, etc., what type of pressure does that place on you, both personally and publically?
Hine: I don't do as much public stuff as I used to. I only 'do' conferences or workshops when I feel I have something I really want to say. I have done conferences where I've spoken or something just on the basis that I've been asked to, but I find that unless I'm really interested in the overall conference, I don't really enjoy it.
I often find that folks who approach me in public (or over the net) have formed an impression of what I am like through reading my stuff, which colours their expectations, naturally. I try hard not to live up to other people's expectations. If I'm asked my opinion on a matter, I'll give it, but I don't see myself as being an 'authority' on anything. It's all too easy, if you're a 'public' figure, even to a small degree, to get caught in the reflection of other people's interest. It's addictive, in a way. Whilst I occasionally enjoy doing stuff in public, it's not something I 'have' to do, so the only 'pressure' I experience is the usual 'have I got enough material to fill a 40-minute slot?' sort of nerves. I've managed to get to the point where I can do presentations without having to look at notes or scripts, which leaves me free to wave my arms around. And whilst I enjoy doing stuff, I don't always want to hang around afterwards, particularly if there's friends there that I haven't seen for a while. I tend to avoid doing book signings and so forth 'cause I like to keep a low profile. Some years back I went to a Pagan Moot and most of the other people there were going "oh another newbie" so I was pretty much left on my own. After about an hour or so an old friend turned up and greeted me very effusively, and hey presto, the folk who'd been ignoring me did a double take and suddenly started being very interested in me, so we left, 'cos I really hate that sort of thing.
G&C: What is your "day to day" life like?
Hine: Ha! At the moment, extremely hectic. My partner and I are in the process of moving to a new flat, and at work, we've just changed from one production workflow to another, which is causing major headaches (I'm a print production & IT manager for a commercial aviation publisher). So I'm working 11-12 hr days at the moment. This tends to mean that I often don't collect my personal email as often as I would otherwise, and hardly have any time for personal correspondence or writing. On the other hand, for the first time in years I have a job with good prospects for advancement and can afford somewhere decent to live.
G&C: Having seen much of the "evolution" of Chaos Magick over the past decades, do you see the proliferation of Pagan "traditions", groups and solitaries as making acceptance and/or tolerance of these religions more difficult to the "majority religions"?
Hine: Well, I've only really been involved with the chaos scene since the early 1980's, so I wasn't there at the start of it all, which was in the mid-1970's. Whilst it's possible that the diversity of approaches to Paganism does make it harder for 'outsiders' to understand what we're about, we shouldn't forget that there's an incredible diversity of approaches within the so-called 'mainstream' religions. It's just that they've been around much longer in the public perception. We need to allow ourselves more time - maybe a couple of centuries or so.
G&C: What do you see as the greatest "stumbling block" to Pagans striving for equality and an end to religious discrimination against them?
Hine: This is a very complex issue. There are Pagans who don't want equality; some who want to remain 'outsiders' and have the feeling of being persecuted. There are those who want to 'police' the rest of us by saying what's 'acceptable' behaviour/belief and what's not. There's a wide diversity of opinions even within the pagan 'community' about this issue, and so we need to identify a diverse range of approaches. I have friends who are pagan parents who go and do presentations to local schools about Pagan beliefs. I have other friends who work as 'out' pagans in environmental education. I do think it's important to present yourself as an okay person first and a pagan or whatever second.
G&C: What are a few of your best memories of practicing Chaos Magick over the past few decades?
Hine: One of my favourite memories is participating in a workshop in the grounds of an Austrian castle - the facilitator was asking the group to visualise themselves as being surrounded by trees - I thought this was funny as the castle was surrounded by about 15 acres of woodland!
Another is of doing a workshop on the magical uses of voice where we were making up silly call and response invocations, and of people laughing throughout the invocations, which I thought was brilliant, especially as I've met people who've been censured for laughing during a circle because they were not being respectful to the goddess. I recall being in a wiccan group - the HPs was doing the Charge of the Goddess - and she slipped and said "and better it be when the man is full" - and we all fell about laughing.
A third is of being at an occult soiree some years back and this guy was going on and on about being psychically attacked by "black magicians". He asked me if this had ever happened to me and what did I do about it. I indicated the woman sitting behind me - a large, muscular lesbian friend wearing an assortment of leather & chains and said "Oh I just send Tracey round and she breaks their fingers" whereupon she cracked her knuckles and grinned ferociously at him. He quickly left.
G&C: Every religion, after enduring a period of persecution, seems to encounter a period of dangerous fragmentation. Do you think the modern Pagan movement is going through this? Are we in need of a period of reunification, for the sake of clarity in terms of information and education, or is this a natural step for a religion that stresses personal responsibility and the value of individual achievement and experience? What should be expected in the future?
Hine: No. If anything we need to acknowledge and celebrate the diversity of Pagan approaches and beliefs. See it as growth rather than fragmentation. This question conjures a horrible image of a bunch of pagan 'authorities' deciding what constitutes 'proper' pagan practice and who's the heretics. Ugh.
G&C: And what do you make of the alarming increase in Pagans selling their services on the open market at exorbitant rates? Is it a side effect of our consumer-based society, a necessary step to help an empty, grasping culture, an obligatory phase (on the part of the practitioners) prompted by the discovery of long-dormant abilities, or some tangled amalgam of all of the above? Do you see it as getting better or getting worse?
Hine: I have to say I haven't noticed this going on. I don't have any issues over people selling 'services' by which I presume you mean psychic healing, divination, blessings, exorcisms and so forth. One might say that they are following in a fine, ancient tradition. Didn't the oracle at Delphi charge a hefty whack for services rendered?
G&C: Do you think that the overwhelming practical focus of today's popularly-received traditions is eclipsing the mystical essence of the religion? Or is it merely a matter of a new, dynamic religion "filling out", if you will, into every aspect of daily life?
Hine: Again, a complex issue. Mystical experience - revelation - is, of necessity, a personal experience which is often difficult to discuss, particularly in books (which are the primary form of communication of Pagan & magical ideas). If there's one valuable thing that's come from Chaos Magic, it's the acknowledgement of the relativism of "Truth" - the idea that what's true for me isn't necessarily true for anyone else. I think it's important to remember this when we discuss mysticism, because a personal mystical experience can easily lead someone to the belief that the content of their experience is a big "Truth" which everyone else must recognise and accept. This can be problematic because mystical revelations are often at the core of the diversity of Pagan beliefs. Perhaps we need to pay more attention - careful attention to the varieties of mystical experience. I do find that there's a wide range of subjects (such as group dynamics) which are related to Pagan & Magical lifestyles which have not been really examined in any depth. Probably because they are not the sort of subjects which publishers will accept. Publishers tend to go for easy-access, bite-size chunks, do this do that books, rather than more complex issues such as mysticism or ethics, so perhaps we need to establish other avenues for getting ideas into wider circulation and discussing them.
G&C: Terms like "Christian-Pagan" keep appearing more and more on the internet and elsewhere. Do you think that such a tempered spiritual approach - much like St. Patrick must have used in approaching the fifth century celtic Irish - is gaining favor? Or, as many religions are returning to their inflexible fundamentalist roots in order to "regain the flock", do you see the inverse as the millennial trend?
Hine: Phew! Another hard one. Seems to me there's room for both inflexible spit-frothing fundamentalism and a more relaxed tolerance of diversity. It all depends where you go, and what you want to hitch your wagon to. Street preachers are everywhere, the Nation of Islam keeps leafleting our local area. To date, I haven't been hassled in public by evangelical Gardnerians or Thelemites handing out copies of Liber Oz. Maybe it's just a matter of time....